---------------East of London Family History Society ----------------- File: EOLFHS22.TXT Date: July 1 1996 Revision: 5 File Location Information: See end of this file. File Contact: Jon Dachey 72611,3062 on Compuserve 72611.3062@Compuserve.com on the Internet -----------------East of London Family History Society ----------------- EOLFHS01: East of London FHS Introduction A. Master Table of Contents EOLFHS21: FAQ about East of London Geography and History. Part 1 EOLFHS22: FAQ about East of London Geography and History. part 2 --------------FAQ about locations within the EOLFHS society------------- This text file is one of a planned series of FAQ files. This file contains Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) about East of London geography and History. At this time there is only one file of FAQ questions, in two parts, and one volunteer: Jon Dachey, Member 4171. You can contact him about geography and history questions as follows: 4171, Jon Dachey, 72611.3062@compuserve.com, California, USA Born and raised in the East End of London. At Jon's discretion, appropriate questions and answers will find their way to this file. Answers by other Compuserve members are used with their permission. The answers given are based on the personal research of individuals; As such they cannot be considered definitive. --------------FAQ about locations within the EOLFHS society------------- Q.11. Where is Barts hospital (St. Bartholomew's) Q.12. :a, What is the meaning of O in front of Irish family names, and why is it used on some and not other Irish names found in London? b, "MC"s and "MAC"s Q13 Where do you get your answers on East of London Questions?. Q14. I am confused by the many parish's in the East End how can I find out which was where? Q 15. My ancestors lived at 20 Wade Street in Poplar in the 1860-1890s. Two marriages from the family took place at St. Mary's Stratford Bow. (1867 and 1876). Isn't St. Mary's Stratford Bow further away than several Poplar parishes?. Is there any logic as to why they would go to St.Mary's to marry? Q.16. I know where Woolwich is but would it have come under Kent or Middlesex in the 1881 census. Q 17 a. What do you know of Forest Gate E. b. What do you know of London cemeteries. c. Can you recommend further reading. Q.18 My father was born in East Ham and I spend part of my vacation each year tracing the family. I have now reached the point where I need to get Birth, Marriage and Death certificates for 1800 and before. Can you tell me how to go about this. Q. 19 What is an oil and colour maker. This is the description given to one of my male ancestors. Q 20 Do you know anything of St. Pancras Old Church? Q.21 What Census results are indexed for London. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Q.11. Where is Barts hospital (St. Bartholomew's) A. Fm: Chris Hall, 100623.2227@compuserve.com Barts hospital is in the city of London, very near St. Paul s Cathedral, it draws its patients mainly from Islington and Hackney, and also the city. Some people from Stepney use the hospital, mainly those who don t want to use the local hospitals, these WERE The London Hospital, Whitechapel - Mile End Hospital Bancroft Road - Poplar Hospital - Bethnal Green Hospital, Great Cambridge Road (later called Cambridge Heath Road). The hospital attended depended on the part of Stepney you lived. The London is now called the Royal London Hospital - Mile End is now called the Royal London Hospital, Mile End - both Bethnal Green and Poplar are now closed. Incidentally, though you may be aware of this, if you have a death certificate with an address that does not make sense and the door number is followed by an "A" or "B" It may be the hospital, I had a relative die at 214a, Great Cambridge Road, and finding no trace of it, only just plain 214 and 216,I was told that 214A was Bethnal Green Hospital, a way of adding an establishment, without naming it, by a helpful local historian. I cant remember why. By the way should you find the hospital you need is The London, They have on staff, an archivist. You can contact him via the Hospital address. The Royal London Hospital, Whitechapel Road, London E1 1BB. Chris ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Q.12. :What is the meaning of O in front of Irish family names, and why is it used on some and not other Irish names found in London. A.: a, Fm: Philip D. Smith, Jr., 71204,262@compuserve.com "O" is from the Irish "Ua" and means "of the race of." It is not interchangeable with "Mac" nor does it relate to "child" or "grandchild of." It was thought to be redundant in English and also stigmatized the person so many dropped it. It has become the fashion in this century, especially, to re-adopt the "O." I teach Gaelic (and Irish and write on names). The "O" developed after the two nations drifted apart and the Scots almost universally used "Mac" for "son of" and "Mhic" ('ic) for "grandson of". Best wishes. Phil Ans. b, Sb: #"MC"s and "MAC"s, MacDonald and Macdonald. Fm: Philip D. Smith, Jr. 71204,262 @compuserve.com A'Phegi -- The origin of the "D/d" is thus: If a person was truly the "son of Donald" (his father's name was really "Donald") then the fashion was to spell the name "MacDonald." If he was simply of the "Donald family" (i.e. as a general surname) it was spelled "Macdonald." Of course, the system fell apart for grandchildren whose father, in turn, was not named "Donald." Scottish and Irish name books both do not -- and neither do the Scottish telephone books -- allow for "Mc." It is always an abbreviation for "Mac." See "Tartan For Me!" for explanations. Women. by the way, are known and "Nic" or in Irish "Ni" -- i.e. Peigi NicDhomhnuill. Phil ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Q13. Where do you get your answers on East of London Questions?. A. Fm: Jon Dachey, 72611.3062@compuserve.com I was born and raised in West Ham, so this gives me a head start. I have many books and maps on the area as I am proud of my heritage. In my youth I walked and cycled the streets of London particularly the East End. My mother lived in the East End until she died in 1984, my sister still lives there and was one time lady Mayoress of Newham. To get answers I refer, among other publications, to the following ( in no order of priority except the first): Compuserve Roots forum, surely the most accessible, comprehensive source of genealogical information and help in the world. The London Encyclopedia. A Genealogical Gazetteer of England. The History of West Ham: 100 years a borough. The people of the Abyss, a narrative based in Victorian London by Jack London. The history of Essex. Research guides numbers 6 and 8 by the West Surrey FHS. The magazines of the EOLFHS, the East End historical society, the Newham Historical society, the Genealogical society and Family Tree magazine. Maps, the map of London 1746 to the present day, which includes John Roques 1746 map and its modern equivalent. The Institute of Heraldic and Genealogical studies parish maps. Town and City maps 1800 - 1855. Various Victorian maps (reproductions) of the East End. London postal districts map. I am fascinated by the subject as well as finding it a great help in my family research. Answering the questions posed, and producing the answers, greatly enhances my knowledge. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Q14. I am confused by the many parish's in the East End how can I find out which was where? A. Fm: Jon Dachey, 72611.3062@compuserve.com You really have to start, with the parish and manor of Stepney, whose parish church is St. Dunstans and all Saints, ( rebuilt 951 AD). This was at one time the only parish for the suburbs east of the City of London. It stretched from the City boundaries east to the River Lea. It covered Mile End, Ratcliff, Bow, Bethnal Green, Limehouse, Stepney Marsh (later the Isle of Dogs) and all of the area currently called Tower Hamlets. >From the late 1500s and early 1600s the population of the East End grew at an explosive rate. First came the Huguenots fleeing from Catholic persecution in France. Then the Agricultural Labourers (Ag. Labs. the farm workers) leaving the countryside where they were starving, to find work in London. They were followed by the Irish fleeing the Great Famine and then by the Jews escaping persecution in Russia and Eastern Europe. Add to this the influx of people from other countries which happens in any port. By the 1600s many new churches had been built and during that century and the 200 years following, many new parishes were formed from the parish of Stepney: St. Pauls Shadwell 1666 St. Mary's Whitechapel 1673 St. Johns Wapping 1694 St. Mary's Le Bow 1717 Christchurch Spitalfields 1729 St. George in the East 1729 St. Anne's Limehouse 1730 St. Matthew's Bethnal Green 1743 All Saints Poplar 1817 This trend continued with churches of other denominations adding to the confusion. If you have a church name, I recommend files EOLFHS31 and EOLFHS32 which list all of the churches in this area. Most of the records are in the Greater London record office. If you want to investigate further I recommend two publications by the West Surrey FHS: No 6, Genealogical Research in Victorian London and No 8, A genealogical Gazetteer of Mid Victorian London. They cover the streets, the churches and the parishes of London and its suburbs. Note, to hopefully avoid confusion this file has been corrected. There were 3 St Dunstans, St. Dunstans and all Saints, the parish Church of Stepney. St. Dunstans in the East in the city of London (but west of Stepney) and St. Dunstans in the West in Fleet Street. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Q 15. My ancestors lived at 20 Wade Street in Poplar in the 1860-1890s. Two marriages from the family took place at St. Mary's Stratford Bow. (1867 and 1876). Isn't St. Mary's Stratford Bow further away than several Poplar parishes?. Is there any logic as to why they would go to St. Mary's to marry? A. Fm: Jon W Dachey 72611,3062 My first thought is was it the grooms or the brides who lived in Wade Street, if it was the Grooms they would wed in the parish of their brides. If this was the brides home then perhaps they were married in St. Mary's as this was the mother church and more prestigious. But then I looked further and I had an interesting time last night dissecting the parishes of Poplar. This was definitely an explosive time for churches. The references are a little confusing: The Parish of All Saints, East India Dock Road was created in 1817 from part of the parish of St. Dunstan Stepney. But the church was not built till 1823. Wade street seems to have been in the parish of St. Matthias, Woodstock terrace which was originally Poplar chapel, a private chapel founded by the East India Dock Company, (or possibly St. Stephen's of which I can find little reference ) both parishes were created in 1867 from the parish of All Saints. I guess even All Saints was very modern then, but it would seem to have been the parish church for Wade street in 1860. At the beginning of the century there were three defined parishes covering the area, west, alongside the river Lea, St. Mary Stratford at Bow to the north. St. Mary Bromley St. Leonard ( an ancient parish with records from 1622) in the middle and Poplar to the south, which was part of St. Dunstans though it had been a parish since 1711 ( a parish could be an administrative district as well as a church parish). By 1880 there were 15 parishes occupying the same area. So it is a mystery why they married in St. Mary's Stratford at Bow, when St. Mary Bromley St. Leonard was in between unless they were males, as I said, and their brides were from Bow. You could try the records of All Saints if they are available. Certainly many of the records for the area are in the Greater London Record Office, if you can get someone to check. My reference shows Christenings 1728-1732, 1775-1776, 1788-1922 in the GLRO. I found Wade street on my 1915 map as I don't have a detailed map of the area before that, but it is mentioned in my Mid Victorian Gazetteer. I hope this clarifies and not confuses, please ask me to elaborate if I can. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It is a little known fact that the EOLFHS area includes a location which was once in Kent. The following exchange elaborates. Q.16. I know where Woolwich is but would it have come under Kent or Middlesex in the 1881 census. Sb: #743595-Woolwich-where is it? Fm: Colin Hicks 100255,170 The bit of Woolwich north of the Thames is today called North Woolwich and is still linked by the Woolwich Free Ferry to Woolwich itself which is south of the Thames. My book of Census Registration Districts says Woolwich was in Kent for the 1871, 1881 and 1891 Census. 1871: RG10/774-794 1881: RG11/740-755 1891: RG12/527-541 It is silent on 1841, 1851 and 1861 Sadly it is also silent on the distinction between Woolwich north and south of the Thames. Colin Sb: #743595-Woolwich-where is it? Fm: Jeremy Wilkes 100775,142 South of the Thames: definitely Kent, as the Metropolitan Board of Works did not appear until 1889. North of the Thames: North Woolwich proper was formerly part of Woolwich parish, in Kent. However, in 1864 it was detached from the south to form St. Mark, Victoria Docks ecclesiastical (but not civil) parish with parts of two Essex parishes, creating a parish in two counties. In 1875 it was transferred again to the new (ecclesiastical) parish of St. Luke, Victoria Docks. In 1877 it was transferred yet again, to the new ecclesiastical parish of North Woolwich! As I read it, this still had one or more bits of Essex in it. Meanwhile, it was, of course, in the London postal area (S.E. south of the Thames, and E. north of it). Sb: #743595-Woolwich-where is it? Fm: Jon W Dachey 72611,3062 The majority of Woolwich is south of the Thames, in Kent but it extends over the River Thames to North Woolwich which was part of Kent for 900 years. It was just called Woolwich until the railway line was built and the station in Woolwich, north of the Thames, was called North Woolwich station. So for the 1881 census I think it must all have been in Kent. About 1894 Woolwich became a Metropolitan Borough, North Woolwich still existed on the north bank, surrounded and split by East Ham. In 1965 North Woolwich was absorbed in to Newham and became part of greater London. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Q. 17a. What do you know of Forest Gate? . My husband's grandfather (James Boyd KEWLEY) died in 1903. He was a railroad engineer engaged in building a railroad in Mexico, was seriously injured, and he and his wife and my husband's father (aged 2) returned to England. We have a death certificate from Somerset House that lists Kewley's "former residence [meaning, we assume, "former" to being admitted to the West Ham Borough Asylum] as "88 Claremont Road, Forest Gate E.") b. We think that Kewley's grandmother and two maiden "aunts" lived at the Claremont address. If this is so, then we suspect that burial would have been local. There are many cemeteries in the area. From the London telephone directory (from the Library) we have addresses and telephone numbers for most of them. YOUR OPINION: should we write to them or phone? How helpful are such places usually? c. Do you have any recommended reading you would suggest to familiarize ourselves with the area? Or can you suggest research facilities here in California we might make use of? Ans.17 Fm: Jon Dachey 72611,3062 a.. Forest Gate is in Newham and about 2 miles from where I was born and raised. It was a more up market part of Newham than the part I lived in. It got its name in the 17th century from a gate placed across the Woodford road to prevent cattle wandering off from Wanstead flats on to the main highway to Romford. Wanstead Flats was and is a large area of open green land. The gate came down in about 1850 as urbanization spread. A railway station was built in about 1850 and the development of the area started as housing for people working in London. Prior to this it was on the edge of Epping forest. When I knew it it was still mainly a dormitory suburb. Claremont Road is about half a mile long and looks to be part of a housing development. I would think it has been there for at least 100 years. By the way I would be interested to know what you found out about West Ham Asylum as two of my great grandmothers died there. As you have probably found it was not just an asylum for the insane but a hospital for poor people. b. As to cemeteries - here you may have a dilemma, the nearest cemetery to Claremont Road was West Ham cemetery, Cemetery Road, Forest Gate, London E.7. My phone number is out of date but I think it would now be 18 534 1566. They have records from 1854 which you can search in person if you are there. I would suggest calling to see if they charge a fee to do the search for you. This is your most likely location assuming the Aunts paid for the funeral. If they didn't and he was buried by the hospital he could be buried in Buckingham Road cemetery , High Street, Ilford, Essex. Or even at Brookwood which is way to the south of London but contracted to a lot of local authorities. c. I think an excellent publication to read to learn more about English research is Family Tree Magazine which is published monthly and contains a mine of information and questions and answers. Family Tree Magazine, 61 Great Whyte, Ramsey, Huntington, Cambs PE17 1HL. The cost is about $60 for twelve issues by airmail or $45 by surface mail ( this takes six weeks or so}. They will take a subscription order by phone if you use a credit card, phone 1487 814 050. I am fortunate to have a copy of "100 years a borough the story of West Ham" which contains several references to Forest Gate. ( I should explain that West Ham and East Ham were combined in 1965 to form Newham.) It is now out of print but you might get a copy from the Newham History Society. I can send you the address. You will also find "Cockney Ancestor " the quarterly journal of the EOLFHS interesting reading. You will get a list of the books they sell when you join. For finding records of Births and Marriages etc. the LDS has records from Somerset House which you can search. This is where all the records are kept of Birth Marriage and Death since national registration became law in 1837. This gives you a reference so that you can apply for the certificate. I have found that I don't have a lot of time to spend poring over microfilm at the LDS Family History Center so I have used a record agent in London who does the search and gets the certificate for Eight Pounds or so. More info. if you need it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q.18 My father was born in East Ham and I spend part of my vacation each year tracing the family.(I live on Long Island in the USA). I have now reached the point where I need to get Birth, marriage and death certificates for 1800 and before. Can you tell me how to go about this. A.18 Fm: Jon W Dachey 72611,3062 A file you may find useful is EOLFHS32.txt in Library 10 in the Roots forum. This lists all the churches in the EOLFHS area. In fact all the EOLFHS files in that library contain information of interest for the area. You say your father was born in East Ham but you are looking for records before 1800 so I assume you got back a few more generations ;-). Prior to 1837 there were no certificates for B. M & D. you have to rely on parish records or bishops transcripts. (parish records were kept by the parish and periodically copies were made and sent to the bishop. Sometimes one survived and not the other) In 1800 East Ham was a small market gardening community of just over a thousand people. Its parish church was St. Mary Magdelene. Most of the records were available in Newham at the Passmore Edward's museum but this closed due to lack of funding a couple of years ago. All the records are now in the Essex Record Office. Essex Record Office County Hall Chelmsford Essex CM1 1LX Great Britain. They publish a book on their holdings of records for London Boroughs which were once part of Essex called "Essex in London" cost 5.50 English pounds The IGI is another good place to look, it has given me many leads, Family Tree Magazine offers a service where they will copy the sheets for all of a specific name in a County for a very reasonable charge. I found this useful when I was on planes on business trips. Another book I can recommend is "Further steps in Family History" by Eve McLaughlin. ISBN 1 85306 062 3. This specifically covers research prior to 1837. I hope I have given you some clues on how to proceed with your search. Please contact me again if I can help further. Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. 19 What is an oil and colour maker. This is the description given to one of my male ancestors. A.19 Fm: Jon W Dachey 72611,3062 I wondered about this very occupation for many years as I have two of them in my tree, but I could not get an answer. Then in the FFHS publication "An introduction to Occupations, A preliminary guide" I found Responsible for mixing colour dyes used in industry or one who worked with a house painter mixing paint. As one of mine owned an Ironmongers shop I imagine it could also apply to one who mixed and sold paint. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q 20 Do you know anything of St. Pancras Old Church? A.20 Fm: Jon W Dachey 72611,3062 I always like to research churches. They are so interwoven in the life and history of London and you come up with some amazing facts. Part of my family came from St. Pancras and St. Pancras Old Church has the distinction that a Saxon altar dated about 600 was found on the site making this one of the oldest sites of christian worship in Europe. The church was still there in the early 1990s making the site nearly 2000 years old. The church was probaly rebuilt in the 14th century and a new parish church for the parish was built in 1822 when the old church aquired the name St Pancras old church and became a chapel of ease to the new church. In 1866 there was a public outcry and questions were asked in the House of Parliament because a tunnel was started through the churchyard by the Midland Railway. The resulting uprooting of corpses caused so much opposition that the project was abandoned. Records of Christening and Marriage from 1849 are held in the GLRO. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. 21 What Census results are indexed for London. A. For an answer to this I turn to my good friend who I have never met except on this Forum. Her answer is precise. Jeanne tells me she cannot answer individual queries so I have left off her ID. I have the same list and am willing to look at limited queries. Jon Dachey 06-Oct-96 12:44:44 Sb: #1851 MDX Census Index Fm: Jeanne/Michael Bunting To: All I posted this information back in April, but it would seem that the time has come to post it again. It is a list of all the "London" census piece numbers, which are indexed and where they can be obtained. The following information comes from Lists of Londoners by Jeremy Gibson and Heather Creaton (1992): 1851 Census indexes West 1. 1466-67 Paddington West MDX FHS 1b.1468-71 Kensington West MDX FHS 2. 1472-74 Chelsea West MDX FHS 3. 1475-78 St Geo Hanover Sq Westminster & Central MDX FHS 4. 1479-80 Westminster Westminster & Central MDX FHS 5. 1481-82 St Martin in Fields Westminster & Central MDX FHS 6. 1483-85 St James Westmst Not yet available North 7. 1486-91 Marylebone London and North Middlesex FHS 8. 1492 Hampstead London and North Middlesex FHS 9. 1493-98 Pancras London and North Middlesex FHS 10. 1499-1502 Islington London and North Middlesex FHS 11. 1503-06 Hackney Not yet available Central 12. 1507-09 St Giles London and North Middlesex FHS 13. 1510-12 Strand Westminster & Central MDX FHS 14. 1513-15 Holborn London and North Middlesex FHS 15. 1516-19 Clerkenwell London and North Middlesex FHS 16. 1520-23 St Luke London and North Middlesex FHS 17. 1524-25 East London (w/o) London and North Middlesex FHS 18. 1526-27 West London (w/o) London and North Middlesex FHS 19. 1528-32 City of London London and North Middlesex FHS East 20. 1533-36 Shoreditch East of London FHS 21. 1539-42 Bethnal Green East of London FHS 22. 1543-46 Whitechapel to be published by East of London FHS 23. 1547-49 St Geo in the East East of London FHS 24. 1550-54 Stepney East of London FHS 25. 1555-56 Poplar to be published by East of London FHS South West 26. 1557-58 Southwark St Savr West Surrey FHS 27. 1559 Southwark St Olave West Surrey FHS 28. 1560-62 Bermondsey Selon/Southwark 29. 1563-65 Southwark St Geo Selon/Southwark 30. 1566-68 Newington Selon/Southwark 31. 1569-75 Lambeth Selon/Southwark 32. 1576-79 Wandsworth/ East Surrey FHS Clapham 33. 1580-82 Camberwell West Surrey FHS 34. 1583 Rotherhithe Selon/Southwark The Selon index is at Southwark Local Studies Library. All other indexes have been published on fiche or in book form and are available from the FHSs concerned for about œ2.00 per fiche. Most indexes are surname only. A few have Christian names and ages. Jeanne Bunting (nee Attersley) UK -----------------East of London Family History Society ----------------- Miscellaneous file information: Roots-L Names Information: Filename: GENEALOG Filetype: EOLFHS22 Title: FAQ about East of London Geography and history File Access Information: 1) East of London FHS Home Page: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jordan/eolfhs.htm 2) FTP: ftp to rootsweb.com; directory pub/roots-l/genealog 3) Via e-mail: To: roots-l-request@rootsweb.com; Subject: archive; Message: get genealog.eolfhsxx where xx=01 thru 99; all input in lower case; no extra spaces before or after entered data 4) CompuServe File Information: Filename: EOLFHS21.TXT Title: FAQ about East of London Geography and history CompuServe Forum: Genealogy (GO ROOTS) CompuServe Library 10: Societies and Organizations Suggested Keyword to find all EOLFHS Files: EOLFHS; Set date to 1/1/96 Description: This text file contains Frequently asked questions about East of London geography and history. New questions with or without answers are requested. Note that the EOLFHS does not include the City of London but covers the East End of London which adjoins it, and the suburbs to the east out into Essex. Keywords: EOL, EOLFHS, ESSEX, FHS, FFHS, LONDON, MIDDLESEX This file is administered by: EOLFHS member, Jon Dachey. Suggestions, questions, corrections, or ideas can be sent to Jon via internet on 72611.3062@compuserve.com or 72611,3062 from CompuServe. This file is shared with Roots L on the internet therefore- Max. characters per line: 72 123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012 If you use a fixed space font, such as Courier, 10 all columns will line up.